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Interview with Hava Eva Jonai

Interview with Hava Eva Jonai, Nonviolent Communication trainer. The interview is for the online magazine www.public-republic.com, Bulgaria. Interviewer is Anelia Kostova-Bozgounova, freelance editor, journalist and illustrator.

– Can you explain Nonviolent Communication briefly?

I think of NVC as the path of the peaceful warrior – a yoga or martial art of communication, that supports me in listening and relating to myself and others in a way that evokes compassion and connection. Through NVC I have become more aware of my feelings and resources, like autonomy, authenticity and many others. I have become conscious about making choices and making requests. I have experienced a quality of connection that opens the heart, and fills it with deep gratitude.

– How do you define empathy? What does it mean to communicate with empathy?

Empathy is attuning to what is alive in someone’s heart. It is the capacity of relating to our feelings with compassion, yet without getting submerged in them. It is like going into the sea – whether it is my own “sea of emotions” or someone else’s – with the confidence that I can swim ashore.

Empathy involves joining someone in their experiences without expectations, without wanting to lead them somewhere or falling into a state of emotional helplessness – just respecting and trusting both of our inner wisdom and autonomy. What supports me in keeping my compassion clear of getting involved is the freedom of not taking other people’s experiences and emotions personally, but wholeheartedly holding onto values like autonomy, trust, confidence, faith, etc.

Albert Camus describes this attitude with these words: “Don’t walk behind me; I may not lead. Don’t walk in front of me; I may not follow. Just walk beside me, and be my friend.”

– What prevents people from feeling empathy?

What hinders us in listening with empathy is that we tend to lose the awareness of our borders, and get caught in each other’s emotional turbulence. Thus, our habitual reaction to other people’s reality is sympathy or antipathy. Sympathy is saying “yes” to other people’s reactions, and losing our own center. For example if I react to someone’s miserable expressions like this: “Oh, my darling, I am so sad for you. They should have behaved differently with you.” Or if I get lost in other people’s blaming, e.g. “Oh, I am so sorry, I am so silly, I should have known better.” Antipathy on the other hand, is resisting the situation, disconnecting from the feelings and having expectations of the other. I am reacting with antipathy when I say things like – “Stop making a fuss. This is not such a big thing. You should have known better anyway. It is your fault. Your are too weak.” etc.

As individual beings we need to be capable of two different functions. One is to detach ourselves from our surroundings composing a closed, inner world. The other is to maintain a continuous connection with the outside world responding to its impacts either protecting ourselves or assimilating its impulses – and growing from both.

The dual capacity of empathy with ourselves and others makes us unique individuals who are in interconnection with the outside world. It is the consciousness of saying “yes” to people’s experience, taking part in the emotions, yet at the same time holding the poise of the witness, and holding the space for the emotions to flow freely. Speaking with empathy might sound like this, “I hear how painful it is for you, and how much you would have liked understanding and a different treatment.”

When we respond with sympathy or antipathy the other person either shuts down or tries to defend him/herself. These reactions do not help any of us in seeing the situation clearly, and do not nourish our connection either. When we connect in empathy, emotions like pain and grief are allowed to come up, and we are not alone with it any more. We have someone who understands and helps us in seeing clearly, integrating what is in our heart and liberating ourselves.

– Do you think that Nonviolent Communication is an easy instrument for reaching better understanding between people, or are we initially aggressive by nature?

NVC is based on a deep faith in our genuine capacity of compassion. Aggression is rooted in states of consciousness such as ignorance, pain, fear and helplessness. Some of us are deeply stuck in the mind-set of misery. Stepping out of these states is liberation we need to get ready for. We, humans, are going through radical changes these days. When we are truly fed up with pain and misery, we get ready to let go and make different choices that liberate us from causing suffering to ourselves and others. At this point we can stop fighting against aggression (isn’t that aggression as well?), and looking deeper beneath unacceptable behavior we can hear the pain and call for compassion. When we see vulnerability compassion evolves naturally, and we can use NVC with ease.

– It seems that NVC can help us overcome aggression, and gives us a path to better mutual understanding. Is it possible to be in a situation where using the tools of NVC is impossible?

NVC is a path of inner growth. The key is learning to look at both parties with compassion – without the preconception of what is “good or right… bad or wrong”. It is easy to feel compassion for a victim. Yet, NVC gives the tools for turning to what is human and vulnerable in the aggressor as well. Once I am able to look at the feelings and needs captured in aggression I have more chance to engage in empathic connection in any challenging situation. I can learn a lot about myself and others through facing someone on the aggressive side. I can learn from the “mistakes” I make.

I trust that there is no situation where using NVC is impossible. I might not be able to address the “aggressor” directly, but even if I do the “empathy work” within – that is giving empathy to myself first, and then the “aggressor” – my behavior towards them will be rooted in peace and compassion, and it will have a powerful healing effect on the situation. I do trust that empathy offered and received is never lost, but many times it might take time for the seed sown to yield fruit.

– When somebody is feeling threatened by aggression, how can he or she have influence on the other side of the conflict?

This seems to be a rather complex question. Our traditional reaction to aggression is close to the age-old teaching of “eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth”. We answer insult with insult, harm with harm. This attitude has led us to wars across the planet for thousands of years. We live in a period when we are being urged to find new ways.

Goethe suggests, “Treat people as if they were what they ought to be, and you help them to become what they are capable of being.” Bert Hellinger, the founder of “Family constellation” or as he sometimes calls it “The order of love”, suggests that what works is for aggression to be compassionately integrated into the human family with the understanding that no one can be excluded without difficult consequences. He also suggests for the aggressive act to be balanced with a restorative action.

NVC is in agreement with all the above, and considers the solution to evolve through communication. In using NVC we connect with the aggressor through communication. How do we communicate with someone who is involved in aggression?

Our inherited belief is that we can stand up against something when we are “worked up”, feeling tense and irritated enough to scream and fight for our needs. NVC has taught me that I am much more powerful when I am connected to myself, feeling centered, even if I am passionate about something.

In the midst of life-threatening danger we might experience a state of emptiness, when movement slows down, and we do the right action spontaneously. Similarly, at a moment of feeling threatened by aggression we can train ourselves to act from a space of stillness and clarity within. “Peace begins with me” – teaches Gandhi and many a teachers of love and wisdom. We can practice the state of inner ease and peace, which creates space for competent choices preventing and resolving conflicts and challenges.

– What makes us aggressive? Is anger something bad that we should try to suppress?

We have learnt to punish ourselves and others. Punishment gives rise to punishment on the other side. If we punish a child, sooner or later, he or she will punish back – and as this is multiplied back and forth, it becomes the keynote not only in the parent-child relationship but extensively. Anger is a “package” of feelings like frustration, helplessness, pain, fear, etc. we have suppressed, not knowing how to express them spontaneously without causing harm to ourselves and others. Our life energy is stuck in the bonds of anger against ourselves and others. We can learn to express ourselves so that our life giving energies get released and transformed into creative, supportive, healing energy.

– Is it possible to avoid or prevent any kind of aggression by using NVC?

In order to prevent or avoid violence we need someone to be conscious and steadfast in practicing NVC. Using language skillfully is based on the practice of presence, focus and ease, which has the power of surprising the aggressor, and stopping him/her from acting out. In some cases we might need to use force acting fast and stopping violent action. However after stopping the aggression NVC suggests engaging in communication, bringing clarity and compassion into the situation.

Compassion and love is powerful in the face of aggression. It might be a challenge to go into our compassionate state in the midst of chaos, distress and agression. Slowing down from the pressure of action, taking time to practice inner focus promotes heart-mind connection, inner balance and effective communication. The state of balance does not come all at once, yet with intention and practice, it gets easier and easier to access.

– You’ve got very rich experience as a trainer. What is the most difficult situation you’ve been in during the trainings?

Yes, I have very rich experience – through facing challenging situations and making a lot of eye-opening mistakes. In the past 15 years I have been practicing and teaching what I have been eager to learn myself. I have grown a lot through overcoming my habitual urge to “fight or flight”… recognizing when something is painful, and speaking up… facing my quiet, little judgmental thoughts… and acting on my need for authenticity.

Everyday situations offer plenty of learning. The other day I met with someone whose words and behavior stimulated judgments in me, like “she is false, untruthful – and I am missing authenticity”. I said nothing, and we soon said goodbye. I have learnt a lot about myself afterwards. I realized how my own behavior was lacking authenticity, when I missed communicating and connecting. If I get into a similar situation next time I would like to look at the other person guessing how he/she feels and what quality of connection he/she needs. I hope to engage in intimate mutual sharing, to create the quality of connection in which we can both be true to ourselves.

Another challenging situation I have experienced lately, was when at the very end of one of my weekend trainings two guests appeared. One of them was an old friend, an NVC trainer herself. Seeing them I felt inspired and happy to share the closing circle with them, but a few minutes later I felt somehow awkward. My need for confidentiality and intimacy of our group seemed unfulfilled. Usually this kind of situation might offer a wonderful chance for listening to everyone speaking their truth, and either unanimously integrating the newcomers into the group or standing up for the integrity of the group, and asking the guests if they would rejoin us at a later point of our group process. In this situation I felt the pressure to finish the course on the agreed time, and I was only ready to listen to the ones who felt annoyed by the presence of the guests. Eventually, our guests agreed to wait outside, and rejoin us at the end of our closing circle. I felt satisfied by what seemed to be another lesson for the group regarding protecting our space in a nonviolent way. But as soon as the guests left there was a powerful voice speaking up on behalf of those who had felt in harmony with the presence of the guests. And there I was, feeling torn and sad, realizing that I would have liked to go with the flow, giving space to everyone, and following rather than leading the group process. My decision might have been “right” from one aspect, yet it missed including everyone and achieving a creative solution in harmony with all. It was a powerful lesson for me and the group to slow down whatever the weather, and give space to everyone involved. One of the gifts of the situation is the gratitude I feel for having people around who remind me, so we can learn from the mistakes we make. And I am also happy about the ease and openness I have developed to receive this kind teaching, even in the position of the trainer.

– You are using different methods and techniques to help people extend their inner limits. Can you give us an example about how this works?

In my previous profession I was involved with teaching language in a multi-sensory way, activating a wide range of our potentials. In the past 5-6 years I have enjoyed studying various disciplines and approaches, for example bodywork, psychodrama, Family constellation and “The Work” by Byron Katie. I enjoy finding out what is common in different approaches and methods, and finding ways to integrate them. When I introduce bodywork exercises in my trainings I am intrigued to explore connection between our conscious verbal and instinctive physical communication. Learning tends to anchor deeper when we experience it with the whole body. Similarly from time to time I suggest expressing ourselves with our hands – drawing, painting, cutting, shaping. For some people expressing themselves with their hands is an inspiring experience. Sometimes I might use elements I have learnt in psychodrama, for example changing roles. This helps us in experiencing the power of empathy by “stepping into other people’s shoes”. I also rely on “The Work” developed by Byron Katie. This self-examination process helps to relieve ourselves from expectations, and to take full responsibility for how we ourselves affect a situation. At the beginning of a training I might mention Rupert Sheldrake’s research on what he calls the “morphogenetic field” (According to Rupert Sheldrake, “morphogenetic field” is equivalent to an electromagnetic field that carries information which is available throughout time and space without any loss of intensity.) The significance of this information in training NVC is that it can have a catalyzing effect on our daily life when we let go of the preconception that a certain situation “is hopeless and unresolvable”, and we are willing to explore how it can be solved. I encourage the participants to use the training as a chance not only for learning about NVC but actually starting to create a new life for themselves.

– I guess that the most common criticism of NVC is that since human beings are emotional and always in a hurry, we may not be able to control the way we speak all the time. Or can we?

In our daily life we tend to get lost in the emotions, and act in a hurry from a very disturbed mind-set creating situations we regret afterwards. With the regular practice of NVC first we can train ourselves to “clean up the mess” we have created. That is, we can search within to find what went wrong, what quality of connection we would really like, and how we would like to act to resolve the situation. Perhaps we can share this with someone who can support our clarity, and eventually we can share it with the person we have been in conflict with.

With inner training we remember to keep quiet in situations when we cannot speak peace, and work through our emotional confusion individually. With growing inner focus and ease we can learn to speak in congruence with our values in challenging situations.

When we learn a new language we carefully control the way we utter the words. Similarly, when we train ourselves to use the language of compassion we tend to monitor how we express ourselves. With time and practice technique and language becomes secondary, what matters is inner peace, the readiness to express ourselves honestly, the willingness to listen with compassion – the attitude we have distilled from our inner training.

– What kind of results can we expect after developing skills for Nonviolent Communication? Are there some “side effects”?

When we start learning NVC, we usually wish and expect to talk “perfectly” right away. However, with the depth of experience lacking behind the technique people will usually disapprove and challenge our “new way of talking”. I find that it is best to keep quiet about our NVC studies, and protect it – very much like a pregnant woman protects the baby in her womb. The image is very appropriate, as life’s cycles include periods of incubation – winter, night, the life of a seed in the earth, a foetus in the womb, etc. A skill takes time to evolve.

In time we learn to keep quiet when words hurt, to ask for time out when we need to withdraw and process a difficult or painful situation by ourselves. We are able to confront our own thinking, and realize how destructive judgments and expectations of others are. We realize that we cannot change others but ourselves, which is both a humbling and empowering realization! We develop autonomy, and it is easier to say “no” when we mean “no”, and “yes” when we mean “yes”. We develop the courage and authenticity to stay open and awake to our feelings in the midst of confusion and pain. We develop trust and confidence in pulling ourselves out of depression or anger with the capacity of turning around and seeing the beauty of our values. We develop gratitude for what is alive in us and others. Understanding ourselves more and more we develop compassion for others, even if they say things and behave in ways we do not like. We develop the capacity to connect intimately to ourselves and others, and experience moments of peace and wonder.

– Marshal Rosenberg is saying (in his book about NVC at school) that NVC is working well, but it should not only be used in isolated communities, because it will make children incapable of living by the standards of the competitive, dog-eat-dog world around them. Is it possible to live in a world of empathy rather than a world of aggression and competition, or is this just Utopia?

We live in a changing world, we create our world moment by moment, sentence by sentence. What may seem to be Utopia today becomes reality tomorrow. I believe in the power of our consciousness, compassion and intent.

– Who is more interested in NVC – people who can’t control their own feelings or people who need to protect themselves better?

I believe people who are ready to take responsibility for their lives, and put energy into continuous learning and growth.

– Is there a person who is not persuadable/manageable with the methods of the Nonviolent Communication?

Yes, there are people who are not yet open to NVC. And there is a growing number of people who feel an inner nudge to have meaningful connections and live compassionately. A lot depends on people who are already involved in practicing NVC. I am grateful when people feel encouraged by our way of living. I find that NVC is contagious.

– Do you use the NVC method in your everyday life, in your family?

Yes, NVC is an integral part of my life. I have changed a lot since I have discovered NVC, and so has my family. It does not mean that we have no conflicts. I believe, conflict is part of life, part of learning and growing. It can sometimes be painful too. But with a steady intent of connecting, taking responsibility for ourselves, and turning to each other with compassion our connection is alive and intimate.

Some six years ago my my daughter said, “I will only join your trainings when I see real change in you.” A few months later she joined my “co-trainer” training, and now she also teaches NVC. My middle son and daughter-in-law also run NVC practice groups. My younger son is also involved. And I am grateful for the wonderful changes in my relationship with my mother.

The more I love myself the more beautiful my relationships are.

– What can you say to people who are skeptic about the NVC? What can you say to people for whom the personal, material success at all costs is more important than living life in harmony, trust and better communication?

People who have doubts about NVC, people who live with primary interest in material success might have their good reason. They probably have their own history in living as they do. Many times their objection is based on some experience that turns them away from NVC. When I meet them I am interested in hearing what they have to say, and listening to what feelings and needs are alive in them. If they are interested in the feelings and values that are alive in me I am happy to share it with them. Hearing each other might be valuable and inspiring for both of us.

Thanks for the interview.